Dudley Moore
6:15 Fri Apr 21
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Better players in every single position.
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franksfat&slow&wank
6:12 Fri Apr 21
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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a lot of money spent wisely
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Alex V
7:09 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Rossal, if you're really interested in how our midfield setup you can look at heat maps or average positions from our previous matches. Not the most exciting task or that useful, but I think it totally confirms that we mostly played an anchor man in midfield with two ahead under Bilic. Less so recently of course as we've tried 3 at the back and 4-4-2 variations. But as a formations nerd it's the first thing I always look for in the first 10 mins of our matches.
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Rossal
6:47 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Sorry Alex i just can't agree with much of that. Its was clear last season we played with Lanzini in the hole. A lot of teams played that formation last season and this season.....all the suits the slower game stuff seems like waffle to me. It suits our players once we have our strongest 11 on the pitch. Without having a player in the hole or close to the striker (especially Carroll) we are too easy to defend against. There is just not enough questions being asked of the opposing defenders without a no 10. To set up 4-1-4-1 you need pace and quality from the wide areas.....we have neither
Oringally though I wasnt referring to us this year....i said that type of midfielder was needed next season to play alongside Obiang. What suits us now and what i think we need next season are two completely different discussions
I think whatever you do against Everton Lukaku scores a hat trick. I agree Ayew needs to up his work rate drastically. But with Kouyate and Fernandes in there there is legs to cover ground and break up play and then get it to Ayew in the hole to do some damage. Without a no 10 Sakho will be very very isolated and against the back 3 they have been playing lately that will give them alot of the ball to spring attacks from
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Alex V
6:36 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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>>> It sounds like you would play younger players just to develop them rather than them being good enough. If they are good enough they can play in a two or three.If they cant play in a two then why are they in our first team at 18,19 ? Look at Davies and Winks for example....theyve shown that if you are good enough youll survive.
I doubt Winks has been exposed too much in his early appearances. And there is no way you would say that he's 'better' than Alli, Dembele or Wanyama. Davies I would think would always be picked in a midfield three at Everton. This 'good enough' tag is misleading - Winks, Davies and most other players that age are being played to be developed, nobody thinks they are the finished article yet. There has to be a proactive policy to develop these players if at all - if all youth players had to be good enough to unseat senior players none would ever be played at any club (which is close to what is happening!).
So yes, we have to play young players with a view to developing them. Of course you can't play every youth player all the time. But we should have a much higher hit rate. And given our great tradition it's a tragedy that we aren't even trying - it's another bit of proud history being destroyed by the current regime.
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Alex V
6:24 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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>>> A two is not outnumbered at all, thats why nearly every prem side plays a two with the one in front to help out defensively when needed. You'd rule out a formation most the top managers play ?
Well that's also three in midfield depending how it's played. Agreed there are the two different ways of setting it up. I actually don't mind the two with one in front in theory, but we have very rarely done it under Bilic or Allardyce before. I don't think it suits our players. It works with the slower pace on the continent, but much more rarely in the prem. Agreed Man City and Spurs do play it, but Alli, Silva and De Bruyne are special players and despite their talent they're bloody hard workers too. Payet and now Ayew are not! And those teams also play possession football - we sadly do not, so our defensive shape without the ball is very important!
The big problem with that approach for us is that if you designate a player as basically an AM, then what you end up with is effectively a two in midfield (and all the weaknesses I just described), It is particularly bad for exposing Noble's limitations imo. That's what we've been effectively playing with Ayew recently - he shows absolutely no defensive responsibility whatsoever, you cannot possibly describe him as part of a three-man midfield.
If we line up like that against Everton's three in midfield, we will be asking for trouble. We will be outnumbered. That's why I favour 4-1-4-1.
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Rossal
6:09 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Trev
Few times (although not alot recently), can't say he has massivly impressed me. I'm certainly not going to take Slav's judgement on any player at the moment.
Alex
A two is not outnumbered at all, thats why nearly every prem side plays a two with the one in front to help out defensively when needed. You'd rule out a formation most the top managers play ? Seems strange.
It sounds like you would play younger players just to develop them rather than them being good enough. If they are good enough they can play in a two or three.If they cant play in a two then why are they in our first team at 18,19 ? Look at Davies and Winks for example....theyve shown that if you are good enough youll survive.
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Alex V
6:06 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Actually last weekend was an example of that. Finally Fernandes got an absurdly overdue start, but in a two man midfield matching up against a three. That to me is just unfair - we won't see the best of a developing player in those circumstances.
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Alex V
5:57 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Rossal 5:49 Thu Apr 20
Fair enough. That will just have to be taken into account - I think we have played differently to you. Lanzini has rarely if ever played that number 10 role for us imo. He has always either operated in a midfield 3 or on the wing. But in some ways it is actually what we both would want as the great thing about Lanzini is he gets forward to do what a number 10 would do but contributes defensively as well. That's a thing you don't get when you play Ayew as an off forward as we have been doing in the last handful - for me that's not sustainable.
The big problem with having just two in central midfield is that you will be outnumbered there in most matches you play in the current prem. That's why I would rule out almost any formation with a midfield two as a realistic approach. If the meta fully changes then maybe.
As you say, there could be an option to play two in midfield, and only three in the tougher matches. What I dislike about that is that you get no continuity between matches if you're forever tinkering about with it. I prefer us to have a stock formation where the players know what they're playing week to week and can build an understanding in. The other plus, as I say, is that you can introduce younger players into the side without it being completely calamitous - three in midfield protects them a bit, two in midfield leaves them very exposed.
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Trevor B
5:56 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Have you seen much of Quina, Rossal?
Bilic was bigging him up not long ago, saying that he expects him to be featuring more next season.
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Rossal
5:49 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Alex V 5:22 Thu Apr 20
I disagree, we hardly ever played 4-1-4-1 last year if at all. It was always Noble and Kouyate behind Lanzini Payet and Antonio/Moses 4-2-3-1
I dont see how 4-1-4-1 benefits our squad or as a formation to play attacking football. Away from home against the top sides to grind out a point maybe but as our default....na not for me
Lanzini and Fernandes can operate in the no 10.....fernandes can play the no 8 role too as he did last week
Quina forget about he is miles off our first team
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Lee Trundle
5:47 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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V - Using your logic, they're already part of the squad discussion (whatever that is). They've all been in and around the match day squad this season at some point.
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Trevor B
5:43 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Not sure Quina is cut out to be a PL central midfielder, looks far too small and lightweight, surely more of a winger or perhaps playing off the striker?
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Alex V
5:43 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Being part of a squad discussion does not equal being in 'my first 11'. Stop making up nonsense.
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Lee Trundle
5:39 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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"I also think central midfield needs a general shake-up regardless. Fernandes/Cullen/Quina should be part of that."
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Alex V
5:37 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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>>> how much have you seen of Quina considering you're having him in the starting XI now?
Where did I say that?
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Lee Trundle
5:27 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Just out of interest, V, how much have you seen of Quina considering you're having him in the starting XI now?
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Alex V
5:22 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Rossal 5:16 Thu Apr 20
There's a longstanding dispute over what formation we play. While we have seen a bit more 4-2-3-1 this season (along with some 3-4-3), nearly all of last season and a lot of this we've played 4-1-4-1 imo. With an anchor man in midfield (Obiang or Kouyate) and two in front (often Noble and Lanzini).
I strongly favour the 4-1-4-1 as the most solid current formation. If we aren't going to play it we need to have the players to switch to it.
Imo it's particularly important to us because we have some important younger players who I think can operate in a midfield three but would be problematic (and possibly calamitous) in a two - Lanzini, Quina and Fernandes.
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Rossal
5:16 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Obiang is clearly a natural anchor man. He sits just in front of the back 4 picking things up. Noble and Kouyate can also play this role.
We dont play a three in the middle we have virtually all season played a 4-2-3-1
Lanzini drops deep sometimes but thats only because we're so shit this season he can't get the ball otherwise
The way the formation should be played is Obiang holding and his partner linking up with the no 10 and being a threat going forward reguarly getting into the oppositions box
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Alex V
5:16 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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I do think a fair number of changes are required, yes. The squad is in really poor shape imo and will get worse if radical action isn't taken this Summer.
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Side of Ham
5:13 Thu Apr 20
Re: So what do we need for next season?
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Alex V in...... sign virtually a new team (it'll be on a sensible budget too) SHOCKER.
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